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Talk:Super Saiyan 3
broly vs super saiyan 3 it should be noted broly was not in the manga and his power wolud rival ssj3 in movie 10 even if they were equal broly would provel due to power increase and ssj3s would decrease Not true at all, that was never stated and is completely inaccurateSSJGoku93 22:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC). i c wat umean but lookn at his strength in his 2 movies u would definetly have to say he was in leauge with super saiyan 3 even if he wasnt he would eventually overwhelm him due to his power endlessly rising and his decreasing :A character's strength cannot be gauged by "looking at their strength". Vegeta's power-ups and techniques in the beginning of Dragon Ball Z look just as elaborate as Super Saiyan 3 Goku's at the end of the series. The only way we know one is stronger than the other is by referring to the outcomes of battles, power levels and transformations. Since there isn't really a common reference with which we can compare Broly and a Super Saiyan 3, anything we'd write would be pure speculation. -- 02:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC) true but broly dominateded a ssj2 without taking any damage remember second coming happend around the time goku knew ssj3 so did bio broly and wat r utalking about no one ever thought vegtea was that strong plus in bio broly in hell goku needs pikkons assistance to go fight broly in the end and look at wat killed broly i understand wat u mean but in a true estimate broly cant be compared with others because he has no limt hes dangerous enough to be a match for omaga shenron we dont know but taking 3 super kamehamehas and the sun with an energy blast to kill him should really say somthing plus brolys power rises ssj3s decreases For one, better grammar would be nice, and two, NOTHING was every shown comparing SSJ3 to LSSJ Broly... so enough with trying to argue about putting it on there, as Nonoitall said, it will only be pure speculation. SSJGoku93 20:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC) :@anon :I never said that anyone thought normal Vegeta was as strong as SS3 Goku; I just said that his power (and that of many other characters) was made to appear just as elaborate as SS3 Goku's (or heck, how about SS4 Gogeta's). Dragon Ball Z would have been pretty boring otherwise. The spectacularity of a battle is not a reliable indication of the strength of its participants. Because of this, and many other examples, we can't base our estimates on how strong the characters and their techniques "look". All that we really know about Broly and an SS3, is that they were both stronger than an SS2. There's no common point of reference we can use to determine which is stronger. -- 21:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC) for one I SAID BROLY MIGTH BE STRONGER AND DONT GET SMART WITH ME *offensive remark removed by nonoitall* dont worry NONOITALL iwasnt talking to u i was talking to that fag who butted in on our conversation How exactly will you "woop ur ass" over the internet? Please refrain from personal attacks. Also, just out of curiosity here, is there a canon source for Broly's power always at a constant increase? :@anon :Regardless of who you were talking to, it is not appropriate to speak that way to anyone on the wiki. If you have some relevant insight to add to the discussion, please add it. If not, you needn't and shouldn't say a thing. (That goes for all the participants in this discussion.) Flinging insults and taunting each other accomplishes absolutely nothing. As yet, I haven't seen any point that can overcome the fact that there is no means for a comparison between Broly and an SS3, so does anyone have anything further to add, or can we call this matter settled? -- 05:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC) yea ill call it settled but tell that sissie brolys power does increase and there is a source movie 8 If you were talking to me anon then you need to watch your attitude my friend. Talk pages are to do just that, TALK. It's hilarious how people get all mad and make threats like that over the internet... But, yes, Broly's power did increase after his near death against Goku. However, there is no apparent way to compare Broly in 2nd Coming to SSJ3 Goku. What we do know is that they are both more powerful than Super Saiyan 2, but we have never seen a Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 battle, we don't know how badly the SSJ2 would lose. SSJGoku93 20:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC) one question ssj goku how old r u :Quote: If you have some relevant insight to add to the discussion, please add it. If not, you needn't and shouldn't say a thing. :This page is for discussing changes to the Super Saiyan 3 article, not the ages of the wiki's editors. -- 06:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC) 15... but that is not important, we are here to discuss Super Saiyan 3 not personal information. SSJGoku93 20:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC) wow u would think at that age you would have somthing better to do with your life...but thats not important any opinions on broly vs bio broly? Bio Broly didn't seem as strong, but all he would have to do is touch regular Broly with the goo to instantly kill him, or anything else. Also, please refrain from personal attacks and people's ages. After all, your statement there could be turned back on yourself. -Ridureyu Anon your are pretty darn arrogant and rude, what are you like 9-10? The common age on this sites 13-18 so yea watch what you say. It's no wonder your grammar is so terrible and you get all pissy because your wrong. Oh yeah, "I have nothing better to do with my life", like football, friends, family, school and other things don't keep me busy right? So enough with the childish personal attacks, this is about Super Saiyan 3, not the personal lives of others. SSJGoku93 01:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC) 27. I was a moderator way back when on planetnamek.com. Fell back into the fandom after buying Tenkaichi 3. -Ridureyu Wait so your 27 Ridureyu? And Broly was far more powerful then Bio-Broly. SSJGoku93 01:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC) Yeah. I was a fan when Saban was still dubbing it. And I'd think Broly is more powerful than Bio-Broly, but the bio-sludge is pretty much an instant kill on anything, kind of like the Devilmite Beam on something evil, the Destructo Disc on everything but Cell, or whatever Dabura spits on. -Ridureyu Cool man at least some one else who might understand why these "little kid" editors are so darn annoying. But yea, I can see what you mean. But, SSJ Goten and Trunks where able to dodge most of his sludge, so I have no doubt that any of the main cast would have trouble dodging him. I'm guessing Bio-Broly was probably around the same power as his SSJ form or even a bit weaker. SSJGoku93 01:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC) Yeah, but Broly is more likely to blindly rush at Bio-Broly and grapple him, which would go to his disadvantage. I agree that he seemed a lot stronger, though. -Ridureyu Yeah I agree, except one powerful blast from LSSJ Broly might be enough to kill Bio Broly (in a hypothetical fight), because he's pretty slow, from what I've seen at least. SSJGoku93 01:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC) Hopefully, as long as there's nothing left to reform. basically, it's down to whether Broly would blast it, or try to clothesline it. -Ridureyu *irrelevant and offensive remark removed by nonoitall* oh yea and since i just dont wanna leave a personal attack no bio brolys guu woulndt hurt broly if he touched him watch the movie the least it would do is transform broly as well and bio broly seems weaker anyway its anyones guess and wat do u mean i get pissy cuz im wrong if u look at my first statment ud c i never said broly wuz stronger i said he MIGHT be *offensive remark removed by nonoitall* Honesty dude, get a hobby, my god your having a freaking temper tantrum. Honestly, talking smack over the internet makes you sound like an idiot, "i could still break ur fuckn face", haha okay sure my friend...how do you plan to do that over the internet... and I'm the loser? I love Dragon Ball Z, have for many years, and contributing here is really fun. It's people like you who come in with your horrible attitude and stupidity that come in and just make everyone angry. You get all mad because I and others find that your statements are ridiculous. Honestly either grow up, your not like any other 14 year old I've ever met, seeing as how your only a year younger then me.. If you continue to act like this you might as well leave this website now, as your immaturity is hilariously stupid. SSJGoku93 20:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC) Anon, perhaps you would win at Football, but compare the number of successful football players to the number of successful, let's say... any other job in the world. Yeah, exactly. Learn to spell:-) -Ridureyu :@anon: Since your IP address is apparently dynamic, I am giving you a warning here as opposed to an anonymous talk page. Please stop using profanity and insulting the other editors. Failure to do so may result in your being blocked from editing. :Since no more insight is being brought forth, the matter is closed. Unless anyone has anything relevant to say about improving the article, do not comment here. (Warnings may be issued to those who do not comply.) Responding to an irrelevant comment with another irrelevant comment (even if it isn't quite as rude as the first) is unnecessary and, in this case, provocative as well. -- 23:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC) I have something I have thought about. When Majin Vegeta fights Majin Buu he is fighting at Super Saiyan 2. Right before that fight, Vegeta fought Super Saiyan 2 Goku on an even scale. From that we can say that Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta are the same power. Then when Goku becomes a Super Saiyan 3 he completely dominates Majin Buu. Now after Cell Gohan has not trained, but Vegeta has trained. That means Vegeta has become stronger than Gohan. Broly fights Gohan right before the World Martial Arts Tournament which means his power is a bit lower than it was when he fought Cell and Vegeta even says that Gohan's power decreased. From that I can say that Broly would have fought on par with a Super Saiyan 2 Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. That means a Super Saiyan 3 would be more powerful than Broly. However the longer Broly lasts in the fight with Super Saiyan 3 Goku then Broly will become stronger and Goku would become weaker. So I come to the conclusion that Sper Saiyan 3 Goku is stronger than Broly at Legendary Super Saiyan. Imortality is a curse. 17:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC) :There's a lot of supposition there. We can't say how much stronger an SS3 is than an SS2, nor how much stronger Broly was than an SS2. All we know is SS3 > SS2, and Broly > SS2. We have no means of directly comparing Broly with a SS3. (Goku as an SS3 didn't really dominate Buu either; he spent most of his time dodging him to buy time for Trunks to find the Dragon Radar, and afterward he was unsure if he really could have beaten Buu or not.) -- 09:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC) ::Maybe not LSSJ to SSJ2 (although going by the evidence, we can at least estimate), but we definitely can say how much stronger an SSJ3 is than an SSJ2 (Heck, we can even say how much stronger a SSJ3 is to an SSJ, an ASSJ, an Oozaru and even base form thanks to the Super Exciting guide as well as hints in the anime/manga itself. SSJ3 has been officially confirmed to be the strength of four SSJ2s, three ASSJs, eight SSJs, fourty Oozarus, and four hundred regular Saiyans. Likewise, Super Saiyan 2 is officially confirmed as being two times stronger than a Super Saiyan, ten times stronger than an Oozaru, and one hundred times stronger than a Saiyan. Ascended Super Saiyans were implied by Vegeta to be three times as strong as a Super Saiyan. a Super Saiyan has already been confirmed as increasing a Saiyan's strength by fifty-fold, and an Oozaru is stated to be ten times as strong as a Saiyan.). ::BTW, that reminds me, I have done a few calculations based off of his fight in Movie 8. During the first (two) round between the good Super Saiyans (IE, Trunks, Goku, and Gohan) vs Broly in his Legendary Super Saiyan form, Goku and Gohan were in their Full Power Super Saiyan states (it's evident that they were in the full power states of a Super Saiyan because, other than the facial features well as acting how they normally would in base form, the movie takes place during the 10 day wait), whileas Trunks was ASSJ (Trunks was the only one of the Super Saiyans who actually had one of his clothing ripped apart just by transforming, and his jacket didn't even tear when he transformed to kill Kogu a movie later, meaning he HAD to be ASSJ.). Seeing how Broly was able to defeat them quite easily during the first two rounds (and, aside from Trunks, all of them were fighting to their full potential wasn't exactly aware of his SSJ2 transformation until he fought Cell, so that didn't really count, that would mean that he was greater than at least five super saiyans (since that is what two full power super saiyans and one Ascended super saiyan would be equivalent to.), meaning it was clear that he was far stronger than a Super Saiyan 2. Even IF we try to say that Broly was only fighting regular Super Saiyans, that would still mean that he's stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 (as a Super Saiyan 2 is explicitly stated to be two times as strong as a Super Saiyan). During what could be considered Round 3 (when Piccolo later, Vegeta arrives in the fray), Broly doesn't flinch at even a joint effort between two Full Power Super Saiyans, an Ascended Super Saiyan, and a Super Namek. As a Super Namek is stated to at least be on the level of a Super Saiyan, if not a bit stronger, that would mean that Broly would be stronger than six Super Saiyans because that is the equivalent what he is fighting against. By the time Vegeta joined into the fray, they tried to defeat Broly head on, Broly evidently was completely unaffected by the joint effort. As two Ascended Super Saiyans, two Full Power Super Saiyans, and a Super Namek were presumably unable to even make Broly flinch during that fight, that would imply that Broly was at least stronger than nine super saiyans, since that's the equivalent that Broly had beaten up. Seeing how a Super Saiyan 3 is eight times as strong as a Super Saiyan, that would imply that Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan form is at least marginally stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 during Movie eight. ::Now, if Broly was fighting a Full Power Super Saiyan, a Super Saiyan 2, an Ascended Super Saiyan, a Super Namek, and an Ultra Super Saiyan at the same time (I can't say how much it would all equate to how we don't have an official statement [either in the anime/manga, or in the Super Exciting Guide as to the strength of an Ultra Super Saiyan, but at least when we don't count the Ultra Super Saiyan, it would equate to seven super saiyans, though he wouldn't have that much trouble there, if we discount the Ultra Super Saiyan), he might have a bit of trouble. (If we are to assume that Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo gave all of their power to Goku, that would mean he would have the strength of a Super Namek, a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan technically achieved the form in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, although he was not aware of it as he fainted., an Ascended Super Saiyan, and an Ultra Super Saiyan (Trunks's Maximum), in addition to his Full power Super Saiyan form's own power.). ::Now, seeing how Movie 10 Broly was implied to be stronger than Movie 8 Broly (Gohan stated that fighting Broly at that point was "just as much of a challenge as the last time Gohan fought Broly", and Broly wasn't even in his Legendary state yet.), that would mean that he's very likely stronger in his Legendary State than an Ascended Super Saiyan, a Full Power Super Saiyan, a Super Namek, an Ultra Super Saiyan, and a Super Saiyan 2 (especially Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan). A few remaining bits of Ultimate Gohan not Ultimate Gohan himself may have briefly come out when Gohan kneed him in the face he seemed to be overpowering Broly when he kicked him, surprising Broly, in a similar manner to when portions of his ultimate power inexplicably reveal itself., which would imply that Broly may be at the level of Ultimate Gohan if not slightly weaker didn't really injure him as much as it stunned him.. As far as the Kamehameha waves that they used to ultimately defeat Broly, we already know that ki-attacks, when given enough time to charge, can actually become stronger than before. As they were placing a lot of effort to overpower Broly's Omega Blaster/Gigantic Meteor, Gohan, Goten, and Goku reaction when Goku appeared suggested that Goku was indeed present, at least semi-physically would have to have been using at least 3x their own power to try and overpower the Omega Blaster. ::So basically, going by these calculations, Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan form, both in Movie 8 and Movie 10, would officially be stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. I can't give an exact measurement, but they are pretty good estimates. I can't say exactly how much stronger Broly is as an LSSJ in both movies compared to his own Super Saiyan form saying his own Super Saiyan form because his Super Saiyan form was shown to be immune to a Super Saiyan attacking him at the very least, like when Vegeta kicked him upside the head and fired an energy attack at Broly and he didn't even get hurt., however, going by the fact that his SSJ form was unable to be hurt by Vegeta's Super Saiyan form, at the very least, if not his ASSJ form, and that near the start of the fight, Broly was already shown to be stronger than an ASSJ and two FPSSJs, indicating that he's at least 4x as strong in his Legendary Super Saiyan form than in his Super Saiyan form, if not five times. Hope this takes care of everything. 100% Utilization of Ki In the article it states that the SSj3 requires 100% utilization of Ki. Is that ever stated officially? If not, then it seems false. Since if 100% of Ki is utilized, there will be none left, and the user will die in a matter of seconds, because there will be no energy to keep him alive. You can say that a large amount of Ki is utilized, but not all of it. --[[User:Dranzer Neos|'N'e'o's']] 18:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC) :Makes sense. It's been changed. -- 08:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC) ::Thanks. --[[User:Dranzer Neos|'Ne'o's]] 09:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC) I don't think it meant that it used all Ki at once,Just that it used Ki more efficiently Or that it was 100% X stronger.Vegerot 01:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :There's no 100% 'times' stronger. ;-) (If he's 100% stronger, then it would be simplest to say that he's twice as strong, but AFAIK there's nothing to back up that figure.) -- 08:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC) Power I read somewhere that SS3 Gotenks is stronger than SS3 Goku is that true? --LocC 09 21:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC) :It is indeed true. Goku said that even with Vegeta, they would die if they go out and fight Super Buu. Gotenks as an SSJ3 was able to fight evenly with Super Buu (and if he was not fooling around, would most likely be able to kill him). --XOmega 11:27 26 July 2009 (UTC) No, best example would be the fact that SS3 Gotenks was beaten easily by Hirudegarn while he didn't stand a chance against SS3 Goku. --Vatek 23:03, 10 February 2009 (UTC) :Canonically speaking, yes, it is most likely that SS3 Gotenks was stronger than SS3 Goku. It's fairly concisely explained in this YT compilation, using the manga and non-filler sections of the anime as references. In the series it's never explicitly stated which was stronger, but it's rather strongly implied that it was Gotenks. -- 09:11, 14 February 2009 (UTC) Nonotail, I agree with you. But, Vatek, no disrespect but the only reason why Goku even beat Hirudegarn was because of his Dragon Fist. Also, I don't think movies really count in canoncity. But, thanks for replying. --LocC 09 14:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC) :Well, it should be noted that even then, it was only because Goku had managed to taunt Hirudegarn to the point where it was 100% uncontrolled rage (thus making it permanently tangible), as Goku and Gohan said, Hirudegarn's weakness is that it becomes tangible with intense emotions. Legendary Super Saiyan 3 It is quite obvious that even though Broly's new form is named "Super Saiyan 3" it is Legendary Super Saiyan 3. See how Ascended Super Saiyan is a fan name? And yet it's accepted. Also Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan 3 is acheived after Legendary Super Saiyan and it still has all the traits of LSS. Broly can achieve normal Super Saiyan. So if he did infact reach "Super Saiyan 3" it would look similar to Goku's form, no green hair, giant muscles or anything. Does any smart person agree with me? EchostreamFanJosh :You are incorrect. In Raging Blast, the only time the form is ever seen, it is called Super Saiyan 3. Please stop adding incorrect information to the article. 07:42, December 13, 2009 (UTC) In this situation, it would be incorrect to call someone who calls Broly a "Legendary Super Saiyan 3" wrong. Each person is entitled to their own opinion. It was never directly stated that this form was NOT legendary, it simply said "Super Saiyan 3". By appearance, it obviously has traits of a legendary SSJ. Think about it this way, when Vegeta shows his USSJ form, he calls himself "Super Vegeta" and that he has gone BEYOND a SSJ. It's never stated that he actually is a SSJ, but anyone can plainly see that his USSJ form is a type of SSJ. The same can be applied to Broly, he is stated to be a SSJ3, but anyone can plainly see that it is similar to his Legendary Form. I'm not saying we should all call him LSSJ3 Broly, I'm just saying to stop calling the term "Legendary Super Saiyan 3" incorrect. -Kaonohiokala 09:40 PM HST, 15 September 2010 :What we call that on wiki sites is "original research," which is when someone observes something that may be obvious to them, but there is no official statement to back up his/her claim. In these cases, the information (no offense meant) is not considered reliable. 16:25, September 16, 2010 (UTC) No, what we would call that is a free opinion. What's going on here is you're trying to force everyone believe something one way. All I'm asking is to remove one biased word. There is absolutely no source of official information that states "Broly is not a LEGENDARY SSJ3". Yet, you insist on calling everyone who believes that he could possibly be a SSJ3 incorrect. If anything, you are the one with original information that doesn't match your claim. I mean, what I'm asking for is to remove the word "incorrectly" from the trivia section to un-bias things, and you want to go around calling people incorrect without proper evidence. That shouldn't be what this wiki is about. -Kaonohiokala 11:03 AM HST, 16 September 2010 :The issue is actually the lack of evidence on your side. The only evidence to speak of is that he is officially called Super Saiyan 3 in a recent video game. He is never officially called a Legendary Super Saiyan 3. Additionally, do not make the edit on the page without the issue first being resolved on the talk page. Our policies dictate that the page be left as it originally was until disputes are resolved. 22:08, September 16, 2010 (UTC) ::Well, to be fair, a trailer for a game does count as official evidence, given the fact that Goku did refer to that form as "densetsu supa saiya-jin suri" which roughly translates to Legendary Super Saiyan 3. Weedle McHairybug 22:31, September 16, 2010 (UTC) Rough Japanese translations are not evidence for official English names. 23:26, September 16, 2010 (UTC) Page format I'm not sure what's going on, but this page is definately shifted to the right...Anyone know how to fix it? 02:42, April 13, 2010 (UTC) :Odd, the page is normal for me. Maybe your computer is misinterpreting it (just throwing out ideas why). 02:49, April 13, 2010 (UTC) I have no idea. Yeah, it's all aligned (the text and pictures and everything) around a centimeter right of where it should be on the left margin. All of the other pages seem to be just fine though, so it led me to believe that it's something with this one. Weird. 02:53, April 13, 2010 (UTC) :It was indeed misaligned. Looks like somebody improperly added a line break, so I fixed the problem. 03:20, April 13, 2010 (UTC) Ah, brilliant! I knew it had to be something small, but you beat me to it :P Thanks very much. 03:21, April 13, 2010 (UTC) Requirements I noticed that SS, SS2, and even SS4 have requirement descriptions. But I don't seem to see one for SS3. IS there any requirements that are stated in the manga or even elsewhere? I know in the funimation dub Goku tells Trunks and Goten that the power has to come from deep inside, and also when he first transforms for Buu there are breif scenes of baby goku and the great ape. How much of this was from the manga (for Goku's transformation for Goten/Trunks I mean did he make any such comment ANYWHERE in the manga since the scene was different there) and does any of what I mentioned provide possible explanation for how to first attain this form?--Black kille 19:24, September 8, 2010 (UTC) Hi, can someone explain something to me It says that the purpose of Super Saiyan 3 is to increase the utilization of Ki. Can someone explain what exactly that means?